Lilach Bullock was the guest on Episode 45 of C-Sweet Talks, the podcast of the C-Sweet Executive Women community, hosted by its co-CEOs Beth and Dianne and published on YouTube on 19 July 2023. The episode is called “Engagement Doesn’t Equal ROI,” which is Lilach’s answer to the first question about misconceptions in digital marketing: everyone is obsessed with followers, likes and comments, and none of them are results. Lurkers are the buyers. The 25 minute conversation goes on to platform choice, how she got started, advice for subscription businesses, being a woman in the industry, why she would rather do outreach than post, why blogging is the one asset you own, and AI and video. The video is embedded below, followed by the key takeaways, a summary and a cleaned transcript.
Watch on YouTube: 45 – Engagement Doesn’t Equal ROI with Lilach Bullock. The community’s home is csweet.org.
Key takeaways
- Engagement does not equal ROI. Followers, likes and comments are vanity metrics; focus on results and on what you can measure. It is the lurkers, not the engagers, who buy.
- Go where your target audience is. If they are not on Facebook, do not spend time there. An omnichannel presence is the ideal, and posting the same content across platforms keeps it manageable, but invest time and money where your audience is active.
- For a subscription business: test organically before you spend on ads, run 80 percent value to 20 percent selling, build referral incentives so subscribers recruit subscribers, and know your churn rate and what keeps people active.
- Social media has never been noisier or more saturated, nobody is immune, and a thousand likes means nothing today. Results now come from proactive outreach and one-to-ones, not from posting alone. Be strategic and consistent, write in your audience’s language, test, and take a break when it stops working.
- Blogging is the asset you own. Accounts get suspended and removed; a blog can be controlled, grown and monetised, and Lilach’s blog carried her through COVID because advertisers pay to be on it. She has blogged since 2004 and is obsessed with SEO and domain authority.
- Women should build support networks and stop comparing themselves; lift each other up and walk away from anyone jealous or negative. And beware the influencer dream: likes and followers can be bought.
- Trends: AI is coming faster than people think, so writers and marketers should master it rather than hide, and video will keep growing as written content gets regurgitated and lost. Anyone sceptical about digital marketing has not done enough of it consistently.
Vanity metrics and where to spend your time
Beth and Dianne introduced Lilach as a digital marketing specialist based near Tel Aviv with 18-plus years as a social media influencer and B2B marketer, providing consulting, influencer marketing, SEO and done-for-you content. Their opening question was about misconceptions. Her answer: vanity metrics. Everyone is obsessed with followers, likes and comments, and engagement does not equal ROI; if anything, it is the lurkers who buy. Beyond that, measure what matters, be consistent, write for your audience, and, because social media is noisier than at any point in her 19 years, be different, vulnerable and generous enough to be heard. On platforms, she and the hosts share a fondness for LinkedIn, but her rule is to be where your target audience is active. She posts the same content across platforms to keep it manageable. The measurement side of that is laid out in how to measure social media success beyond likes, and the trap of vanity numbers in the influencer metrics that matter and the ones that do not.
How she started, and advice for subscription businesses
She started as a virtual PA after her employer refused part-time hours when her daughter, now 18 and about to start army service, was born. She got into social media when it launched, saw from the UK that she could reach the world, remembered when you could message everyone who liked your Facebook page, tried to build a social media tool before Hootsuite, and has blogged since 2006, obsessed with traffic. Asked what she tells a new subscription business, she said it depends on whether the audience is consumer or B2B and whether you will spend on ads; test and prove things organically first, learn what your audience loves and hates, keep to 80 percent value and 20 percent selling, build referral incentives so you are not endlessly acquiring, and know your churn rate and what keeps subscribers active, because the model is fantastic and hard.
Women in the industry, and why outreach beats posting
On lessons for women, she was candid: from young motherhood to menopause the stages have different challenges, women juggle more, and comparison is easy in a space full of edited, aspirational images. Have a support network that lifts you up. When Dianne said social media is a time suck, Lilach agreed: it can be overwhelming, nobody with a large following is immune, a thousand likes means nothing today, and results now come from proactive outreach and one-to-ones, with face-to-face networking coming back. You have three choices, ads, hire someone, or do it yourself, and even with AI tools outreach is work. Be strategic, be consistent, know what your audience wants, write in their language, test, and if it is not working try something else or take a break. Her hands-on approach to LinkedIn specifically is in LinkedIn marketing that produces results, not reactions.
Blogging, community and the trends to watch
Asked about blogging and Slack, she said she is a huge fan of blogging: she has done it since 2004, her blog and website carried her through COVID because advertisers pay to be on it, and unlike a social account that can be suspended or removed, a blog is your own asset to control, grow and monetise. Everyone should blog. On supporting other women, she pointed to her free trainings, workbooks and swipe files, her speaking and network groups, and her belief that women should lift each other up and step away from anyone jealous or negative, something she has experienced. She warned that likes and followers can be bought and that the influencer lifestyle is more than a follower count. On trends she named AI first, admitting she swings between excitement and terror, and said writers and marketers, herself included, need to master it because change is coming faster than people think; and video, because AI makes written content easy to regurgitate. Her current stock-take of which tools earn their keep is in the AI tools that work for a small business. To sceptics she said: anyone sceptical has not used it correctly or done enough of it. She used to get hundreds of thousands of views on a 500 word post; today she works harder on social media than she did ten years ago. She closed on what she loves: meeting people, helping them grow, working from anywhere, the tools, the creativity and the freedom, plus a thick skin, money made and lost, and the knowledge that nothing lasts forever.
Frequently asked questions
What does Lilach Bullock talk about on C-Sweet Talks Episode 45?
The misconceptions in digital marketing, starting with vanity metrics: followers, likes and comments are not results, and lurkers are the buyers. She covers choosing platforms by where your target audience is, how she started as a virtual PA and early social media adopter, advice for subscription businesses (test organically before ads, 80/20 value to selling, referral incentives, know your churn), lessons for women in the industry, why outreach beats posting, why she is a huge fan of blogging as an owned asset, and AI and video as the trends to watch.
What is Lilach Bullock’s advice for a subscription business getting started online?
Work out whether your audience is consumer or B2B, because the two are very different. Test and prove what works organically before spending on ads. Learn what your audience loves and what turns them off. Follow the 80/20 rule, 80 percent value and 20 percent selling. Build incentives and referral programmes so existing subscribers bring in new ones. And know your churn rate and what keeps subscribers active, because the subscription model is fantastic but hard to succeed in without those numbers.
When was the episode published and how long is it?
Episode 45 of C-Sweet Talks with Lilach Bullock was published on YouTube on 19 July 2023 and runs for about 25 minutes. C-Sweet is the executive women’s community at csweet.org, and the show is hosted by its co-CEOs, Beth and Dianne.
Full transcript
Cleaned and condensed from the episode’s auto-generated captions. Filler and crosstalk removed, obvious caption errors fixed, meaning kept. “Host” is Beth or Dianne, co-CEOs of C-Sweet. Lines are attributed to Lilach only where the speaker is clear.
Host: Hello everyone, welcome to C-Sweet Talks, where we speak with industry leaders and introduce you to some of the most interesting people and businesses. We are focused on women, money and power, and diversity in all areas. I’m Beth, co-CEO of C-Sweet, with Dianne, co-CEO. Today we are so happy to have Lilach Bullock as our guest. She is a digital marketing specialist based in the Tel Aviv area, with 18-plus years of experience as a social media influencer, in digital marketing and in the B2B world. She provides B2B marketers with consulting, influencer marketing services, SEO and done-for-you content. Welcome. At C-Sweet we use digital marketing like crazy, and it is a must for every business to survive, so we want your tips. What are some of the misconceptions about digital marketing, and how do you address them to make your clients successful?
Lilach: That is a great question to kick off. For me the biggest one is vanity metrics. Everyone is obsessed with number of followers, likes and comments, and we have lost sight of the metrics that really matter. So the biggest thing is to focus on results rather than engagement, because engagement doesn’t equal ROI. It really doesn’t. If anything, I would say it is your lurkers that are your buyers.
Host: Right. We put a lot out into the world looking for members and sponsors, and there is a lot of engagement, but that doesn’t necessarily return.
Lilach: Totally. Another one is measuring: how can you measure, what should you be measuring? Then there are the obvious things, being consistent, writing for your audience, giving value. But today, and I have been in business nearly 19 years, I have never seen social media so noisy, so saturated, so competitive. Everyone is saying the same thing. So now more than ever you have to be prepared to be different, to be unique, to really put yourself out there, to be much more vulnerable and to provide huge value, so that you stand out and are heard above the noise.
Host: As you look at all the platforms, do you tailor to a platform or to your audience? Twitter, LinkedIn, YouTube, there are so many, and everybody tries to hit them all just in case. We love LinkedIn personally, because that seems to be where our place is.
Lilach: I’m a fan of LinkedIn as well. Ultimately, if you want the right people to hear you, your target audience, you have to know where your target audience is. If they are not on Facebook, why are you spending time there? In an ideal world everyone would have an omnichannel approach and be visible on all the platforms, and I typically post the same things on different platforms so it is much easier to manage. But ultimately you have to invest the time and resources where your target audience are active and engaging.
Host: So tip number one, post the same material across platforms. How did you get started in digital media? Did you grow up saying you would be a digital media expert?
Lilach: Oh my goodness. I started out as a virtual PA. I had just had my daughter, and she is 18 and a half now, starting the army in a couple of weeks, which is very scary. I was a training manager and my company wouldn’t let me go back part-time, so I decided to work for myself. I was gradually getting into social media when it first launched, and I saw the power. I was in the UK and I realised very quickly that I could reach the rest of the world. I was very ambitious and driven, and it was so much quieter, so much easier. Do you remember with Facebook you could message everyone who liked your page? You could post links, there was no gaming the algorithms. It was very different, and I latched onto it and it catapulted me into the space. I tried to launch a social media tool; I came up with a spec before Hootsuite did. I always loved networking, I wanted to reach the rest of the world, and I saw huge potential in social media. I started blogging in 2006 as well, and I was obsessed with driving traffic. I saw a gap that other people, particularly in the UK, weren’t using, and I just went for it.
Host: What do you advise new businesses to do? Say they are a subscription business, online, and they want to get their presence out there. Who should they start with first?
Lilach: The subscription model is very popular right now. It depends on the type of audience, because consumer and B2B are very different, and whether you want to spend money on ads or do things organically. My recommendation is always to test and prove that it works organically before you spend money on ads. It is about testing to see what your audience loves, what turns them on and off, and following the 80/20 rule: 80 percent value, 20 percent selling and promotion. Given the current climate, I would also think about incentives to grow the subscription: rather than constantly getting new people, see if you can get people to invite others, with incentives, offers and programmes, so you are building an army of people who promote you. And something very important with a subscription model, because the model is fantastic but it can be a hard model to succeed in: you have to know your churn rate, at what point people stop subscribing, so you don’t run out, and how you keep subscribers active and doing whatever they are supposed to be doing. That helps it grow organically as well.
Host: That is terrific advice. Being a woman in the digital marketing industry, what are some of the key lessons you have learned that contributed to your success? We heard A/B testing and knowing your audience. What else?
Lilach: The beauty of women is that they are much more supportive. I have been at every stage as a woman, from young mother to now entering the menopause, and every stage has different challenges. As women we have it a lot harder, and I know you are not supposed to say that, but it is the truth. We look after the kids and do all the juggling, and then comes the brain fog. One door closes and another opens. If I have learned anything in digital marketing, it is that it is so important, particularly as a woman, to have a really good support network where people lift you up. And as a woman it is very easy to compare yourself to others, especially in the digital space where everything is edited and aspirational.
Host: Nobody can match that. Although in France they are going to make them show their real selves.
Lilach: I hope so. And we have seen so many changes. On LinkedIn it is only in the last 12 months that people have been posting selfies, which was very Facebook-centric before. I’m not sure I’m a fan of that approach on LinkedIn, I find it a bit clickbaity, but it is effective and it plays to the algorithm.
Host: We do it at events, and when we win an award. But Lilach, it takes so much time to do all this. Not everybody has the time to sit and do social media. It seems like a big time suck.
Lilach: It is, and it can be overwhelming and frustrating, particularly right now, because as I said, I have never seen it so tough online, and I don’t think anybody is immune, even people like myself with large followings who are known in the space. Everybody is struggling, and nobody is being honest enough about it. Behind the scenes I talk with people and everyone says a thousand likes means nothing today. It is very time consuming. Don’t do it just because everybody else is there, and don’t be obsessed with the numbers. Put yourself out there, but where you get the results from now is being proactive and doing outreach, rather than just posting on social media. The one-to-ones. And I’m already seeing things come back round: face-to-face networking, because people have missed it and are overwhelmed online. It is a lot of work and it is time sensitive, and you have a choice: spend money on ads, pay someone to do it for you, or do it yourself, and even though there are tools, particularly with AI, it is still a lot of work if you want to do the outreach. So be mindful and very strategic, and ask what it is going to achieve. If you do it, do it well. Don’t post once today and at a different hour tomorrow. Be really strategic, be very consistent, have a cluster approach, know what your target audience wants, write for them, in their language, make it easy to understand, and don’t be afraid to test things. If it is not working and you are not getting results, try something else, or even consider taking a break. Sometimes we need to detox from social media as well.
Host: I love it. What do you think about blogging, and Slack, and all of that? We have over 10,000 in our database and it is growing like crazy, and some of the women say you need to get on Slack, you need to do this and that. To me it is yet another avenue. What do you say about blogging?
Lilach: I’m a huge fan of blogging. I have been blogging since 2004, and during COVID it saved me: my website and blog make me an income because people advertise on it.
Host: Wait, Beth, did you hear that? People advertise on it. We need to discuss that.
Lilach: And what we are seeing with social media, because it is so noisy and there are so many rules about what you can and can’t do, is that I know so many people who have had their account suspended or even removed, on LinkedIn, on Twitter, on Facebook. You don’t own it. Whereas your blog is your own asset. You can control it, grow it and monetise it. So I’m a huge fan of blogging, and I’m obsessed with SEO, driving traffic and growing my domain authority, and growing an income from it. Everyone should be blogging.
Host: How have you used your experience to empower and support other women in digital marketing? Is it a solo thing, or do women support each other?
Lilach: I have so many free resources on my website: free trainings on everything from LinkedIn marketing to how to get bums on seats for your webinar, videos, swipe files, workbooks. I have spoken at many events over the years, I have been part of different network groups, and I’m always happy to help people as much as I can. I love working with women. It is very nurturing, and there is a connection because we can talk about the particular challenges. I really recommend that people lift each other up rather than put each other down, and stay away from anyone who is negative, jealous or competitive. I have had women do that to me over the years. I had a lot of success a few years ago and a lot of people couldn’t cope with it. Everybody should pick each other up and be kinder to one another, particularly online, because words get misconstrued and we have to be careful what we say. Cyberbullying is horrible; it is the ugly side of social media, and it is sad to see.
Host: Are a lot of young, emerging leaders getting into digital marketing? Is it a growing field? I have three kids and I don’t know how much they are on social media any more. They don’t do Facebook, but they do the dating apps.
Lilach: I think a lot of younger people see the influencer lifestyle and think, I want to be an influencer, and they don’t realise it is a lot more than having a certain number of followers. At the end of the day you can buy anything online: likes, followers, anything and everything. So you have to be careful what you suggest as an influencer as well. We have to be mindful of that.
Host: Going back to business, what are some of the trends businesses should focus on to stay ahead of the competition?
Lilach: AI is a huge one right now. A lot of people, myself included, fluctuate between excited and terrified about what it can do. A lot of professions, particularly writers, and marketers like myself, need to get their heads out of the sand and master it, because it is going to change things, it is only a matter of time, and I think it will happen way quicker than everybody thinks. So use it, embrace it, maximise it. I also think we are going to see a lot more video. With content and AI it is so easy now to regurgitate content, and it is getting lost. Video is going to become even more popular and used a lot more.
Host: For those who are sceptical about the impact of digital marketing, what do you say? How do you convince a potential client who asks what digital marketing is going to do for them?
Lilach: Anybody who is sceptical hasn’t used it correctly. That is the reality. You can only be sceptical of something if you haven’t used it right. I believe in marketing everything works if you do it the right way, do enough of it and are consistent. The reason most people are sceptical is that they posted once or twice a week for a month and nothing happened. It is a lot of work, and people want fast results, and today that is not the case. It used to be very easy. I could write a 500 word blog post and get thousands, I’m not exaggerating, hundreds of thousands of views. I can’t duplicate that today. It is the same on Facebook and Twitter: I can’t get the results I got from doing hardly anything. I work harder on social media today than I did ten years ago, three years ago, a year ago. That is why people are sceptical: there is so much more work and effort involved, and a lot of noise. And if you are new, you really need to consider going down the ads route, because otherwise you are playing catch-up the whole time, and it is exhausting.
Host: What do you love most about your job?
Lilach: I love meeting people. I love learning about people’s businesses and helping them. I love helping people grow and scale their business and create the dreams they never thought were possible, and get out of their comfort zone. I like the diversity: I can work from anywhere in the world. When COVID happened everyone became obsessed with working from home, and I have been doing this for nearly 19 years. I love being at home and chatting like this. How amazing is this, from Tel Aviv to Los Angeles? I love the tools and the tech, being creative, working when I want, and having the freedom and flexibility. Just before our call I was in the spa. And it is nice to give back and share my voice. I have had to grow a thick skin over the years. I have made a lot of mistakes, I have lost a lot of money and made a lot of money, and I have learned that nothing lasts forever, the good, the bad or the indifferent. You have to love the journey, the process and the rollercoaster of being an entrepreneur.
Host: Where can people find you?
Lilach: My website is lilachbullock.com. I also have a podcast, aptly named the Lilach Bullock Show. It is spelled L-I-L-A-C-H, like lilac with an H, then B-U-L-L-O-C-K dot com, and all my social media handles are the same. In fact you can Google it: there is only one Lilach Bullock in the world. I’m on LinkedIn, Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, everywhere.
Host: Terrific. Thank you to our listeners and thank you, Lilach Bullock, for being our guest on C-Sweet Talks. We have really enjoyed getting to know you. Thanks to our sponsors, and Beth, wrap us up: hit subscribe on Apple, Spotify or wherever you find your podcasts, leave us a review, follow us on LinkedIn and Twitter, and go to csweet.org to join the community and be a participant in life. Thank you for listening.
